Debunking Viral Claim About the Talmud and Minors
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Is it kosher to take joy in the death of evil people?
This week many Jews are openly celebrating the news of the death of two major terrorists -- top Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukur in Beirut and Hamas’s political leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran. Both have years of blood dripping from their hands, having masterminded the killing of over 200 American servicemen in 1983, the barbaric massacre of 1200 in southern Israel on October 7th, the kidnapping of 240, and the recent slaughter of 12 Israeli Druze children in Majdal Shams.
But some Jews are pushing back, saying that it is not Jewish to take joy in someone’s death, even if they were not good people.
This took me back to May 2011 when President Obama announced to the world that Osama Bin Laden had been killed. We were living in the D.C. area at the time, and spontaneously hundreds of Americans flooded the streets in front of the White House chanting jubilantly, “U-S-A, U-S-A!!” I posted my joy and immediately got negative comments. One Jewish guy quoted from a midrash on the Torah that when the sea engulfed and killed the Egyptians who were chasing the Jews, God quieted the angels and told them not to cheer their death, that this was not something to celebrate.
Indeed, when the sea miraculously split, the seabed turned dry, and the Jewish people walked safely to the other side. They then turned to watch the death of their enemy, as the now muddy seabed caught the Egyptian horses and chariot wheels.
The Torah describes how Jewish people broke into song, called “The Song of the Sea.” Miriam, with musical instruments, took the Jewish women aside and danced and sang in praise of God. The Talmud teaches that in heaven the angels also broke into song but God chastised them, saying, “How can you sing when my people are dying?” (Talmud Sanhedrin, 39b)
Several questions arise. Why would God tell the angels not to celebrate and yet allow the Jews to sing? And God’s people were dying because He himself killed them!
What God is saying to the angels is that this is not a happy day for Him. He did not create the Egyptians for them to do evil, but they chose evil, and now evil had to be eliminated. But the Jewish people had suffered at the hand of the Egyptians; they not only had the right to celebrate, they must celebrate.
The Shabbat before Purim is called Parshat Zachor, the Torah portion where we “remember.” What is it that we are recalling each year? We remember Amalek, the arch enemy of the Jewish people who attacked the Children of Israel in the desert, and whose descendants rise in each generation to try and destroy us. Remembering Amalek fulfills one of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah. Yes, God commands us to remember evil. But why would we forget?
Because there is a part of us that wants to rationalize evil away, and not to accept that it actually exists. We give it political reasoning or economic rationalization.
In life we must know what is good and what is evil, and we should celebrate when evil is destroyed.
The Torah tells us that it does exist, we must not close our eyes to it, and we are to do everything that we can to eradicate it from the world.
During the Passover Seder we sing “V’hi sh'amda”:
“For not just one alone has risen against us to destroy us, but in every generation they rise against us to destroy us; and the Holy One, blessed be He, saves us from their hand!"
Mr. Yisrael Yitzhak Cohen, of blessed memory, was a survivor of Auschwitz and Dachau. He told us dramatic and horrific stories of what he experienced. He shared with us that when the Nazis tortured them in the camps, they would point their guns and shout, “Sing Jews, sing.” And they would sing “V’hi sh’amda.”
As the Nazis left the camp, killing every Jew they could find on the way out, Mr. Cohen, barely a skeleton, laid down among the corpses and feigned to be dead. When the Nazis were gone, he and a friend stumbled into the kitchen, found some flour and water and began to bake it into something they could eat. As they sat on the floor waiting to remove the matzah, American soldiers entered the room. They were liberated on Passover Sheni, 29 days after Seder night.
Mr. Cohen knew evil when he saw it and would never forget.
During the havdalah ceremony that marks the end of Shabbat, we celebrate the ability to distinguish between light and darkness. In life we must know what is good and what is evil. Yes, we are commanded to remember that there is evil in the world, and we should celebrate when it is destroyed.
As King Solomon wrote in the Book of Ecclesiastes: “To everything there is a season… A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance … A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8).
The Book of Ecclesiastes is read in synagogues on the Shabbat of Chol Hamoed (the interim days) of the week of Sukkot. In 2023 that day fell on October 7th.
I am fine with evil being destroyed, but I do not "rejoice" in it. Rather, I look at it like getting rid of vermin. I don't cheer the death of mice, but I am certainly glad they don't infest my home any more.
The article doesn’t address what qualifies as “evil” (tax evasion? Drunk driving?) Furthermore, it doesn’t mention how we should respond when the evil is committed by a fellow Jew. While we are a mostly law-abiding people, there are exceptions. I stayed in touch with someone imprisoned for a white collar crime. However, when another acquaintance pleaded guilty to trying to engage in conduct with a minor, I dropped him. I didn’t want to endanger my own children.
You are correct if good and evil were subjective, but they are not. The Torah clearly spells it out. It is also important to know the difference between those who dislike or hate Jews and those who want them dead. The former is wrong and disappointing, the latter is called evil.
sara Leah stark hit it, its not correct to rejoice at another's death proof we remove a drop of wine 16x on seder night bc hashem had to destroy his creatures y c shoave
We sing at the seder and celebrate the downfall of evil, but we also take a drop out to lessen the joy. But there is still joy.
We have a choice: good or evil. I clearly understand celebrating the removal of evil from this beautiful world. I also see the other side of the coin: it is sad that people chose evil over righteousness. Yes, that person would be living if not for evil ways. There are a lot of miserable people in this world - lost and doing evil things. I pray for these people.
Hashem created evil in the world for people to have free will, I read this Shabbat about Moses staff which is straight and used to bring miracles, but was also used to turn the staff into a snake, in the article it says everything could be used for good or evil, the wicked/evil in a person can be ingrained since birth like it says in Psalms, even though we seem happy when is evil is destroyed, Hashem is not happy because everyone is created in G_d's image, our enemies that do evil against were brainwashed since birth do harm us or worst, I am not sure what our religion says when our enemy falls, the seder on Passover might have the answer
In Bereshit (Genesis) - we learn that - G-D - created MAN - IN G-D's IMAGE & LIKENESS. So ALL mankind - has descended - from Adam & EVE. I'm also concerned - when men who are made in G-D's IMAGE & LIKENESS - turn to EVIL - and then - G-D - CHOOSES - to ELIMINATE THEM. OFTEN - G-D uses us (man) - as shown in the Written Torah - & the Prophets - to DESTROY EVIL MEN. NOTE: there are TWO TYPES OF MURDER. WE - are COMMANDED by G-D - NOT TO INTENTIONALLY MURDER OTHER MEN - that's punishable by DEATH. And that - G-D also made provisions of SAFETY - for those who COMMIT MANSLAUGHTER (2nd of the TWO TYPES) - in the WRITTEN TORAH). ERGO: when G-D selects to destroy evil - we have a TWO-FOLD RESPONSE - JOY - that the EVIL - HAS BEEN DESTROYED. SAD - that someone was DESTROYED.
Yes, indeed, they should celebrate the death of evil people! We celebrate the death of the evil Haman -- it's called Purim.
I hear the excellent points you have made here but what about if we behave as they do, celebrating the death of any other human, whether evil or not, then aren't we moving away from G-dliness and towards becoming more like them?
That is another reason we are commanded, " not to forget", to remind us never to allow any of the spirit of their evil to enter our rationale or thinking. Of course we should celebrate, but not in any way as the evil characters celebrate in thought and in deed
As a child in 1967, I was taught not to celebrate the Israeli victory that year. My teacher made it clear to us that the victory did not end the conflict and that there would be battles in the future. She was very concerned about the future. I don't remember much from that time, but this was one lesson that I took to heart: There is a bigger picture that must be considered.
A man has been killed; the enemy has not been vanquished. Understand the difference!
Thank you for writing a beautiful piece. I was enlightened
"As King Solomon wrote in the Book of Ecclesiastes: “To everything there is a season… A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance … A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)." Sounds familiar, like a song by The BYRDS!
Yes, the group took those words and set them to music. Other groups have also taken biblical quotes for their songs. Hasidic music in particular is characterized by phrases from the Torah or Sidur.
Pete seeger wrote the song!
As is common, articles that are supposed to enlighten us end up sowing more confusion than clarity. I understand that "it is not the Jewish way" to celebrate the death of a person, even an evil one like a terrorist responsible for thousands of Jewish deaths. But, alas, we are human, and our job as humans is to make God's world a better place. The first responsibility of the government of Israel is the protection of its citizens and, if it orders the killing those who would kill us - all of us - then we should praise its actions. And, yes, if I could go back in time and kill Hitler before he came to power, I would do so.
tache4, I think you misunderstood this article. It clearly says we should celebrate the death of an evil individual. Dance if you will.
Inconclusive is how I would describe this article about celebrating an evil person's death. The miraculous escape from Egypt and the resulting miraculous escape from the clutches of the Egyptian cavalry were just that, absolute miracles requiring the daily and holiday repetition of Shiras Hayam which unquestionably was a celebration of Hashem's miraculous rescue of our Jewish brethren. With the recent execution in a matter of days from each other, I think other pointed questions must be asked, other than celebrations of if and how to celebrate. We have to ask what and how long the Israeli government knew about these rodents and why they weren't killed earlier? We can ask pointed questions about the Yom Kippur War, which we never heard acceptable answers to up to even this time.
There seems to be conflicting teachings in the Book of Kohelet. In 11:10, ...and when the wicked perish, there is song. In 24:17, When your enemy falls, do not rejoice.
I believe that our reaction to the death of our enemy should prompt sincere praise and gratitude to G-d, but mimicking our enemies by giving out candies and celebrating in the street is not smart.
Of course we are happy, but we don't know what the blow back will be from Iran and their proxies, and our joy needs to be tempered.
Saying Psalm 100 - MIZMOR L'TODA, is good. But rejoicing that looks like gloating, I say again, is not the smart way to go.
It seems that Job 31:28-29 and Proverbs 24:17-18 are applicable on one side. And Exodus 15:1-7, 19-21 or actually nearly all of Exodus 15, Psalm 83, 109, 69:22-28, imprecatory Psalms, and Proverbs 11:10b on the other side. And I have always meditated on Proverbs 17:5b in this context. Is there a difference in people that cause us grief and those that cause G-d grief? I struggle with this. A recovering rejoicer.
I, unfortunately, read, just this morning of someone purporting to be a "Rav" [from the Hebrew 'Great' as in "Great Man"], who has canceled Tachanun in his synagogue today to "rejoice at this occasion".
To him I ask, there is a Pasuk (verse) in Mishlei (Proverbs), Chapter 24, Verse 17 to be exact. It reads, in a fair translation from the original Hebrew, "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls".
So my question is, "Rav, does your copy of the Sacred Writings [Ketuvim], NOT contain this verse?
Reuven we have a very big Tanach and we don't draw conclusions from one verse. See the commentaries on that verse and then learn the entire rest of the Torah before you will be able to understand this or any other topic, for that matter.
Thank you for this. Oftentimes we get caught in weaponizing "empathy." If HaShem commanded that the Amalekites be destroyed in every generation, then I too believe He wants us to rejoice. It is when our fellow believers struggle that we are not to rejoice for that would simply be pride.
God answered this question with The Flood, when all the angels were rejoicing and He admonished them to stop celebrating the loss of life of those who had behaved evil.
God was still sad, even though The Flood had to be.
It should never be a cause to celebrate the death of a fellow human being, no matter how evil.
Somewhere in that person's equation of life, humanity failed them.
Did you read the article? the article explains why this conclusion you are making is incorrect.
My answer remains the same.
Elsewhere it has been explained "satan" is an attribute of HaShem to challenge and tempt us.
Elsewhere it is said HaShem created evil during Creation.
Elsewhere it is said HaShem created everything ex nihilo.
Everything is Him.
Elsewhere it has been said human beings could not even think a thought without the consent of HaShem.
And I have written elsewhere just as a person on a sleeper car might awake to find their train parked on a side rail (actually happened) unaware; the story of humanity is already complete, perhaps sitting on God's book shelf collecting dust, and periodically withdrawn and allowed life, but we in our smallness have no knowledge, yet we have temerity to teach ourselves to hate and kill each other, and be glad?
Very helpful!!
Clarity we all need!
Wow! I am so glad to see an article from you Lori. I met you many years ago when you came to speak in a community near my home. You were also kind enough to respond VERY quickly to an email I sent you during the days you were doing Lori almost live. I appreciated this article and hope to see more from you in the near future.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
Terrific article! Everything Lori says hits home with the truth. Yesterday in the community of Neve Daniel here in Israel the congregation recited Hallel (without a brocha), psalms of praise, for the assassination of the villain Haniyeh. We should celebrate when evil is vanquished.
Indeed; as the writer points out -- we must do whatever we possibly can to eradicate evil and then celebrate when we've succeeded, b'ez"H.
The problem is that in today's "moral equivalency" world, too many have lost sight of what constitutes good & evil. Those who subscribe to the "I'm OK, you're OK" ideology—regardless of people's actions—eventually lose their ability to discern the difference between these polar opposites.
If we point to the Torah's standards of definition, we're rejected as "religious fanatics."
And so the "liberal" leftists go on their merry way ... until they're swallowed by Evil, as history (both ancient and current) has proven.
Interesting. Those who were murdered in kibbutzim on Oct.7 hosted Pali workers who in turn gave pertinent details of the kibbutz layout to the organizers of the massacre. Sinwar was among the 1,000 released for Shalit after getting brain surgery that saved his life. For all the good these pro-peaceniks thought they were doing towards their Gazan neighbors they ended up paying with their lives and the lives of hundreds of their Israeli brethren.
Re: The I'm okay you're okay philosophy. It is not new at all. Re: "Liberal leftists going on their merry way." We really need to examine the person behind the politics. I am a registered Democrat but fall in lockstep with absolutely nobody!
Wow. That's amazing.